There are several places around the world that locals believe are a door to hell. Endless catacombs beneath the city of Paris, France for example or Dimmuborgir lava formations in Iceland. When it comes to sheer jaw-dropping effect, however, The Door to Hell by Darvaza in Turkmenistan takes the cake. I would also classify Darvaza as one of the places that should be on the must-visit list of every serious explorer who likes to visit Earth’s most breath-taking sites. Darvaza is a gas crater the burning gates of which have been flaming for upwards of 37 years.
Darvaza Burning Gas Crater
Turkmenistan is very rich in natural resources. Currently a sovereign country, Turkmenistan was part of the Soviet Union until 1991. It was during rule of Soviet Russia, back in 1971 when geologists were conducting gas drilling in Kara-Kum desert and discovered an underground chamber close to the village of Darvaza (known in Turkmen as Derweze, but sometimes also referred to as Darvaz). The discovery of the chamber was accidental and resulted in drilling rig collapsing, leaving giant gas crater filled with poisonous gases exposed to the world outside. The concentration of gases within the crater was high so nobody dared to go down there. It was then when someone came with an idea to light the gas in the crater on fire so as to burn it before the poisonous fumes engulf the nearby town of Darvaza.
The geologists thought the idea of burning the gas was smart and went ahead with lighting the crater on fire. As it turns out, the supply of quality natural gas below the crater is near infinite as the crater’s been burning since. At the time of this post, on June of 2009 the gas crater in Darvaza is still burning and has been since 1971 without interruption. No one can even imagine how much quality natural gas was burnt throughout the 38 years of the crater being on fire. No one can estimate how much more gas there still is. When they first lit the gas crater on fire, they thought the fire would go out after a few days. It’s been more than a few day, it’s been more than a few weeks or months. It’s been decades and the gas crater is burning just as it did the day it was first lit. Putting all economical loses from wasted natural gas aside, imagine the ecological impact this burning gas has cause during decades of non stop burning!
The Door to Hell
The locals from Darvaza have given the burning crater a name that suits it well – The Door to Hell. And everyone who visits Darvaza agrees with the name and finds it appropriate. When you look inside the burning gas crater, you do feel like this is what the door to hell would look like. No one dared to enter the chamber when it was first discovered and no one has dared there since. After all, everyone knows what kind of path a door o hell takes you. And it’s not the path anyone would voluntarily want to embark on. Seeing the door to hell with your own eyes, however is an experience like no other. You will have long stayed in awe after experiencing the viciousness of the fire within the gorge of the burning crater. The Door to Hell would be an amazing vacation experience for the adventurous wonderers. This is a vacation idea that your mainstream tour operators don’t know about. And that’s the beauty of it.
Darvaza Location
Darvaza is located in Turkmenistan but many sources mistakenly mention that it’s located in Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan is a country next to Turkmenistan and Darvaza is definitely not located there. Which is a good thing as there have been travel warnings for Uzbekistan for a long time, urging all travelers to avoid the country due to high risks of terrorist attacks and/or civil disturbances. But Uzbekistan is not where Darvaza is.
Darvaza and the burning gas crater are located in the central area of Turkmenistan, about 260 km north of Turkmenistan’s capital city Ashgabat. Check out the location of Darvaza on the interactive map below:
Is Turkmenistan Safe to Travel to?
Turkmenistan is located in the Middle East (Central Asia) and is surrounded by countries such as Afghanistan or Iran, which are known for frequent terrorist attacks, war, kidnapping and other crime against tourists. Despite proximities to war zones, the US Bureau of Consular Affairs has no warnings for Turkmenistan at this time, other than a recommendation to exercise normal degree of caution and keep aware of your surroundings at all times. For US Department of State Travel Website with more info and more up to date travel warnings, click HERE.
Canadian Foreign Affairs and International Trade Office however warns that tourists to Turkmenistan should exercise HIGH degree of caution based on sporadic clashes that occurred in September of 2008 in the outskirts of Ashgabat in the northern district of Khitrovka. For Canadian Foreign Affairs and International Trade Website with more info on Turkmenistan and more up to date travel warning, click HERE.
Despite its proximity to war zones and a violent clash from a year ago (which country hasn’t had one like that) Turkmenistan seems like a reasonably safe country to travel to at this time. Unless situation changes dramatically, the regions around Darvaza appear safe and friendly. A tourist should however always remain cautious and don’t needlessly attract attention on to themselves. Don’t show off and don’t walk desolate streets alone at night. Just general personal safety advice that should be in place no matter where you’re travelling to.
The Door to Hell Video
Darvaza The Burning Gas Hole Photo Gallery
Photo Source: English Russia
Dave,
How clever of you to play the Ayn Rand card, that’s the best you can do? You Still offer nothing in the way of science, data or information to refute anything put forward by the scientific illiterates. We’re waiting…
Cheers
Hello o3,
I enjoy playing the Ayn Rand card. There’s nothing that an uneducated teabagger loves more than Ayn Rand. They love that atheist with a passion which they otherwise reserve for Jesus.
You want science, data and information? If you people really wanted that you wouldn’t remain ignorant scientific illiterates. You people are ignorant by choice because otherwise you’d have to deal with unpleasant realities.
Dave, Dave, Dave. Dear, I’m still waiting to be educated. Along with everyone else, I’m getting tired of you consistantly calling us ‘illerates’ when you offer no new information to ‘educate’ us with. Simply because someones’ opinion differs from yours does not make them ignorant, that’s the joy of debate. But if you could offer up some information with your claims that we are’ willfully ignorant’, then I might accept that name. Also, can you think of no other insult but ‘teabaggers’? It’s really getting old. And like my friend 03 said, you are a mental masturbater. You probably think that you are so clever and witty when all you are doing is throwing around names and trying to make youself look intellegent to internet strangers. You are getting boring, poppet.
My question still remains; if the U.S is such a horrible place filled with terrible people pissing on the flag, why haven’t you left? Oh, and when the world ends, it’s taking you with it. Not just us ‘conservative teabaggers’.
Dave, Davo, Davarama, D-fuego,
Come on you can do it, we’re all rootin’ for you. A fact, just one fact.
Cheers
*Snicker* D-fuego.
Hello Ally,
Why haven’t I left the USA? Because, remember, your side lost. This is the reason why so many conservatives have been wishing to secede from the Union … they love America so much that they’d abandon the country simply because a non-white person is President.
Too bad for you. You are a politically irrelevant minority now … the 19th century mindset party, anti-science, anti-reason, anti-progress, anti-Nature and anti-Life.
Your side lost and South Carolina and Texas both hinted that they would replay the Civil War scenario. Your side lost and your own people threatened treason against the government, violence against census takers, and a desire to get out your guns and play the happiness-isi-a-warm-gun game.
So don’t talk to me about patriotism because you aren’t authentic patriots.
Just came across this thread by accident, and thought that since David wasn’t up to answering John’s spurious arguments, I’d at least throw one level-headed response in the ring.
John seems to claim that the last six years have been a period of global cooling. (Sorry if I’ve got that wrong, but it’s a common skeptic argument, so that’s what I’ll assume you meant.)
This argument hinges around the fact that 1998 was a very warm year, and some of the years since 1998 (especially 1999 and 2000) have been cooler than 1998.
Overall trends are still towards global warming, and cherry-picking a single year to use as your baseline is a bit disingenuous, though several prominent skeptics have tried it. Starting out with practically any other year, or looking at any other period, shows a warming trend, one which is getting more distinct, the further we move from 1998. Incidentally, 2005 was warmer than 1998.
Hope that helps.
Back again. Since John was kind enough to post a link for one of his arguments (about whether CO2 rise causes global warming, or whether it is caused by global warming) I thought I should respond to that too.
Research presently indicates that when ice ages end, there is generally a period of warming at the beginning of the end that lasts for about 800 years, in which time there is not much extra CO2 in the atmosphere. After that time, CO2 that is sequestered under antarctic ice or in the depths of the ocean, starts to escape, and participate in a climate feedback loop which generally lasts for about another 5000 years.
In this scenario, the initial rise in temperatures is not associated with CO2. Perhaps the earth has shifted in its orbit (which happens every 21000 years or so) or there has been some other event which has caused warming.
However, scientists are in pretty much universal agreement that once the feedback loop of released CO2 begins, the climate is in for a long few thousand years of sustained higher temperatures, at least partially driven by the presence of extra CO2 in the atmosphere.
What this means in our present crisis is rather worrying. We have not yet seen the release of sequestered CO2 from our environment during this warming cycle. If that happens, it probably doesn’t matter much (in my opinion) what measures we take to reduce emissions, as the genie will be out of the bottle.
Here’s my counter-link to John’s link above: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/04/the-lag-between-temp-and-co2/
It’s a bit technical, but I think it does a good job in explaining why present climate science considers the argument that CO2 rises are caused by global warming as a problematic meme. Note that this isn’t a new argument. There are articles and assertions going back at least to 2004 and earlier (John’s link is a 2006 post, mine is 2007) but as far as climate scientists are concerned, the evidence still supports the theory that CO2 rise is both caused by and causes environmental warming.
Hope that helps.
Hello Dylan,
* “Just came across this thread by accident, and thought that since David wasn’t up to answering John’s spurious arguments, I’d at least throw one level-headed response in the ring. ”
Wasn’t up to answering John’s argument … do you know what the Bible says about answering a fool in his own folly.
If conservatives were honest and scientifically literate enough to respond to reasoned arguments there wouldn’t be any need for this extreme effort.
The conservatives aren’t interested in science. Any effort along that line is wasted … just as it would be if you happened to find yourself engaged with a creationist or a flood geologist.
Dear, sweet, David. My side lost? Are you assuming that I live in the South? You know what they say about assuming. Well, I live in niether Texas or South Carolina and have nothing against a non-white president. See that argument might work if I was white myself. I don’t have an issue with race, I have an issue with ignorance. I am still waiting for your great wealth of knowlege. You have niether informed nor educated. You believe that if you call someone stupid that they are, just because you said it. You cannot call me willfully ignorant any more, because this whole time I have been asking for some small peice, some shred, an iota of whatever great knowledge you could bequeath me. I’m a well educated woman, Davey. Simply because you say I’m ignorant doesn’t make it so.
Oh, it makes me laugh that you bash so much on the south, yet you live in Florida. Instead of blogging perhaps you shold go back to taking pictures of birds and otters. At least they can stand for your babbling.
Hello Ally,
You can say whatever you wish about your location and your political affiliation since it is quite easy for people to lie on the internet about their own self. What is quite certain, though, is that you have a anti-science teabagger mindset, which is the mindset Christian fundamentalist creationist and pro-pollution zealots.
In regardings to demanding some knowledge … knowledge would be wasted on you and your type. Conservatives are anti-science, anti-knowledge and anti-life.
If you were at all familiar with the demographics of Florida you would know that Florida isn’t a Southern state. When people talk about the South they don’t have Florida in mind. Instead they are thinking about the states which actively participated in the Civil War and remain bitter in their loss.
The birds and otters can stand my babbling because they are a lot more intelligent than you. There is no animal more miserable than the human animal.
Happy New Year to all of you guys. Let’s not forget that this topic is about Darvaza well, shell we 🙂
Dave, darling. It’s obvious that you are just as miserable as the rest of us ‘conservative, teabagging, creatins’. As o3 said, have fun with your 15 minutes of internet fame, Paris. Happy New Year. Have fun with your furry creatures.
Hello Ally,
The misery which is present in humankind relates to human nature, fatally flawed since the beginning. As I said, the birds and the otters are not afflicted by humankind’s fatal flaw.
Human misery will end when humankind goes extinct. This is one reason why humankind’s stupid reckless behavior is rightfully considered suicidal. Humankind hates life and prefers violence, destruction and death to peace, contentment and happiness.
Conservatives are anti-life, anti-peace, anti-Nature, anti-God and anti-survival.
Needless to say, the animals are a lot better and a lot wiser than you. Humans work really hard at unhappiness and for that sake they treat the planet like a sewer and are an existential threat to All-Life, Nature and humankind.
But don’t take my word for it … listen to God’s honest evaluation of the species in Genesis 6:5-6.
Hello.
You lost me when the debate drifted towards politico-esoteric comments and the place of USA in the world.
This is just besides the point.
Geologically and technically speaking:
This fire could probably been extinguished and this quite easily. Problem… There would be plenty of gas escaping from the hole. And most of it would be CH4 (methane or natural gas, the one that kills people when it leaks in our cities) and H2S (hydrogen sulphur the one that produces sulphuric acid when disolved in water (like in clouds…)
Some are having great thoughts… Cap the hole… Unfortunately, it’s a bit like trying to hold water in a sieve. Even with nowadays technologies, it is very unlikely to be possible.
Use the energy to produce power or anything else… Great idea, and what for? the main problem of power is transport and storage not really production. Producing power in the middle of the Kara-kum desert. To power what? Who?
Try to use the gas: technically speaking, shallow gas reservoirs are nearly impossible to use. Industrial pumping and recovery techniques have limitations.
In term of gas emission and pollution, looking at the size of the fire we are probably looking at the equivalent of what a few 1000 people town powered by a coal plant would produce. It’s a very small amount. Giant landfills in India, Brazil, Egypt China, produce thousands of times more gas per year. The day every human activity on earth is as clean as it can be, it shall then be time to look at that hole…
When attacking problems, you’re always better of fixing the bigger ones and finish with touch up on smaller things.
Leave your political and religious debates aside. This post is about Davarza well, Turkmenistan.
If you are interested in the geological bits or the technical bits, just try to contact the local branch of a geologist’s professional association (AAPG, AUSIMM, you name it… there’s plenty of them). Geos are usually very keen on sharing their passion for earth, don’t hesitate to ask.
“From the comments it is evident that Americans rank among the stupidest and most scientifically illiterate people on the planet.
Don’t worry, I won’t waste my time attempting to educate you. An education would be lost on you people.
Best to leave the stupid to their talk radio and fox news. Delusions never die.”
Since this comment, nothing but venom has leaked from your PC. Not even one viable response. Absolutely nothing added to any of the topics raised to do with science or otherwise. I cannot even lower myself to that level and hope that all others who come across this post will ignore your “wolfs cry” from here on.
I do have a contribution to your education (as that must be the only reason you came on here). Are you sure you know what an “American” is? All my educated brothers and sisters out there must be grinning now. All people who live in “North America” and “South America” are “Americans.”
As I do not live in the United States(the actual citizens I must think your bashing is directed at) I find it was my duty to inform you.
Oh, and all humankind….. come on now. Then you quote the bible. Last I checked this was about…… HAHAHA! Now I get it, you are on here because of the “Door to Hell” reference. Sorry, I thought you wanted to discuss the “Gas Burning Crater”.
Now it is late and I am sure you are mentally drained from all this.
Now as you turn off your lights, radio and computer tonight……. Remember, from all us “stupid Americans,”
Your Welcome 🙂
Now pack up tomorrow and jump on that “stupid American” invention called the airplane (the thing that flies through the skies like a bird, but it is not).
Wave farewell and send me some tea when you land I am getting a little short.
Just to get your gears going to help you along, I am an Atheist.
Your response in this post will fall upon deaf ears from this point forward.
But e-mail me sometime, [email protected] perhaps we can chat.
And I am truly sorry for that Kanter I do agree, this post is about the Davarza well.
If we are to be concerned over such a little thing, might as well figure out a way to cap off some active Volcanoes while we are at it. Let us just stick to putting out forest fires for now, at least we know that makes a difference.
Happy New Year everyone.
Hello Metis,
* “I do have a contribution to your education (as that must be the only reason you came on here). Are you sure you know what an “American” is? All my educated brothers and sisters out there must be grinning now. All people who live in “North America” and “South America” are “Americans.”
Wow … is that so? Are you certain? Most of these Americans from Teabagistan don’t even know that there is anything outside of America’s borders. They might even think that the world is flat and less than 10,000 years old.
* “Oh, and all humankind….. come on now. Then you quote the bible. Last I checked this was about…… HAHAHA! ”
If you are offended at all by my quoting the Bible I can assure you that I don’t give a damn.
* “Now pack up tomorrow and jump on that “stupid American” invention called the airplane (the thing that flies through the skies like a bird, but it is not).
Wave farewell and send me some tea when you land I am getting a little short.
Just to get your gears going to help you along, I am an Atheist.”
What an incoherent paragraph. Did you go to the Sarah Palin writing school or are you a semi-literate idiot?
Power transports pretty well (thanks in large part to Tesla’s research and subsequent high voltage AC – sheesh, we haven’t advanced his ideas much). Depending on how many btu’s worth of gas you could effectively “harvest”, you might be able to make a nice amount of power. A typical combined cycle power plant (gas fired turbine with exhaust heat used for secondary heat exchangers for steam turbine… in other words, the efficient kind) can make over 500 MegaWatts using roughly 5000 decatherms of natural gas per hour (I’m not sure how the composition/quality of this gas compares, nor the available volume). This type of plant costs at least a couple hundred million US dollars built in North America (which is less of a factor than one might first think). It would probably cost more in a remote place such as this.
An obvious and easy to understand comparison would be windmill power (to assess value). btw.. these are an enigma in the power industry (not too many are willing to say this because it’s not politically correct).
Typical windmills cost about a million dollars per unit (yes, I know there are farms of them) and make a maximum of about 1 megawatt. They don’t need fuel but their prime mover (wind) is not reliable (depending on location). There are places in the world where they will leave areas wanting for power. Windmills like to make power at night (due to wind cycles and incentives like credits and tax breaks) when we least need it and coal plants need to make power and continue to use fuel for reliability reasons (at night). Talk to (m)any system operator in the power industry and they’ll grit their teeth when you mention windmills. Coal plants can and will go bankrupt in this scenario and many areas will be left with windmills, combined cycle gas and peakers (single cycle gas) – expensive and less reliable power. In other words, they won’t have enough power for peak power consumption during the day (especially after the world economy picks up). The power will certainly be more expensive as well.
But I digress.
Ah.. the question remains – how far away is a good “power need”. Transmission construction costs between 1 and 5 million US dollars per mile (dependent on terrain and other factors).
I’d assume a minimum of 10% losses in transmission – possibly much more depending on distance to power “need” area.
Electricity in industrial/residential areas of the US can fluctuate but $30 to $50 is a start (per MWh). If we do the math, we understand why plant construction becomes less important – $40 per MWh x .9 (losses) x 500 (plant output) x 24 = $432,000 worth of power per day (about $157 billion in power per year not including outages and low demand periods). $40 per MWh could be as low as $20.. you also have licensing, plant maintenance, plant personnel, land acquisition, carbon taxes, etc. Also consider transmission construction (front loaded).
If these types of power plants make sense in the US (combined cycle gas fired) where natural gas costs $3-$12 per decatherm, it seems compelling to build a power plant near a large (possibly free) gas reserve. Conservationists would like the idea because it’s currently burning and creating undesirable by-products and not doing anything constructive. Why not do something constructive (make usable power) while making these undesirable by-products?
It boils down to whether the transmission costs combined with the free fuel compete well with other forms of power generation (which is near the power need).
My numbers are from memory.. if I’m wrong, somebody please correct me.
Thanks John,
Loss in power transport in France’s network is 2.5% of the total production.
In the case of a powerplant in the middle of that desert, this loss wouldn’t be the most important but as you demonstrated, it would be at a ridiculous cost.
Solution: leave it burn, travel, get there, go and see that oddity of nature. The ground is natural, the cave-in half natural, the desert probably magnificent as most deserts is natural as well… The country is, more than likely, worth a visit.
By the time someone spends time to find a technical solution, there will be a lot of other matters to solve.
In first aid you are always taught to go for the worst first and then treat minor things. This little fire is nothing in comparison with industrial sources of pollution. Let’s look at what’s big and next door before going for what’s small and in the middle of nowhere.
Cheers.
I’d like to understand more about whether there’d be enough gas to support a powerplant. Possibly good points about the shallow reserves and all by Kanter… Even if there is enough gas.. enough volume, extractable, etc., somebody will want to get paid for it (land owner, gov’t, indigenous rodents…)
And don’t forget, this post is still about the destination idea for your next holiday.
All good points Kanter. This thread should be about the “vacation spot”.
It does look like a neat place. With 2 people at the rim (in the picture), I doubt we’re getting thousands of decatherms per hour – oops, there I go again.
As someone who’s not educated in areas of energy harvesting, I have little of value to add to discussion on the topic, but I have to admit that even though this is primarily about introduction of a place for travel, on topic discussion about what could be done to avoid the waste of energy and resources is a valued addition to the page. I did not particularly find the arguments in mid section necessary, but now that this debate is back to being about Darvaza Well, I actually enjoy the qualified and educating posts by people who obviously know what they are talking about.
No, filling it with sand would not work. The gas would just migrate right through it and you would be left with the same problem only it would be ugly. Don’t worry about the impact on global warming. This crater has probably done less damage in 38 years than 1 days worth of airline flights around the world. Just imagine how much fuel is burned everyday by planes, especially if you include the military flights around the world. I think that they should find a way to plumb water lines around the crater and harness the heat to make a power plant. As long as it is burning, why not make free power out of it??? At any rate, it’s pretty cool!!!!
Hello Angie,
* “… now that this debate is back to being about Darvaza Well, I actually enjoy the qualified and educating posts by people who obviously know what they are talking about. ”
Anyone who visits a Vacation Ideas blog for the sake of getting an education about energy really ought to engage their mind a little and educate themself since I would imagine that there are blogs actually devoted to energy where you could learn a bit more from more reliable sources.
Education via the Internet isn’t something I would recommend even for uneducated conservatives.
are you guys for REAL ?. CO2 does NOT cause warming. I just watched Apollo 13. The CO2 rose in that little sucker on the way back from Mars and Tom Hanks and the crew were freezin their asses off. IDIOTS !!
Oh and David, you are a butt head with no facts to back yourself up but, right now you have a nice warm fuzzy feeling because someone else has mentioned your name and responded to your completed and utter hatred of all things right. AND. I’ve looked at your photos on flickr and they are below average. BTW, AGW is a myth.
YES of course. I forgot totally what this thread was originally about. Would be a nice place to visit. (I hope David books a flight to Uzbekistan) while the rest of you tree huggers book your Carbon Neutral flights (just a hint, there is no such thing) to Turkmenistan.) That hole is seriously awesome.
Hello John E Dub,
Poor uneducated bitter conservative John … anyone who tries to derive scientific conclusions from a movie really probably should not spend their time talking as that reveals the profound depths of their stupidity.
I’m sorry, I can’t stop laughing. You took my comment seriously. BITTER? Ha. It wasn’t Mars it was The Moon and it wasn’t Tom Hanks it was Jim Lovell. You fell for that reply like a real nong dinchya poppet? Proving you don’t read everything, I’m still laughing. You have proved yourself to be the idiot. AGAIN. Have ya booked that flight to Uzbekistan yet? Bye Bye brainless.
Hello John e dub,
Teabaggers evidently don’t do humor very well just as they don’t comprehend science so well and they don’t do religious well and especially they don’t live well.
Teabagistan must find happiness whereever they can because they sure don’t have any happiness in their life.
David, like a performing monkey, you never cease to entertain.
But here’s a few honest questions for you: Once again, if the U.S is so terrible why are you still here? Like Metis said, hop on a plane and go somewhere else. It isn’t that hard. And where did this hatred of everything American come from?
You tell him Ally! I don’t think he listens though. I pity his wife, oh wait, she probably left him. I pity his friends, oh wait, he definately doesn’t have any.
Hello Ally,
Poor Ally from Teabagistan. If America is so good why do you people hate America so much and spend so much time wishing to secede from the union, engage in a revolution from the federal government, and provoke some sort of stupid religious war on behalf of imposing your fundamentalist morality upon everyone else?
Teabaggers aren’t patriotic. Teabaggers are pure plain stupid people. Uneducated fools waving the flag while pissing upon it with their own pollution.
I never realized that the state that I live in tried to secede from the Union. I’m not from Texas, asshat. So how about you actaully read the posts that you ridicule. You keep on making yourself look like an idiot, and it keeps getting more funny. How about you answer a question for once, D-fuego?
Oh, and if you’re so educated why don’t you know how to properly uses puncuation?
Hello Ally,
Do they not teach science in teabagistan or are you just naturally stupid?
David is a troll. Avoid him and move on. Good proverb…Never wrestle with a pig, you’ll only get muddy and the pig will enjoy it.
hmmm… well this has been an interesting debate to watch. I stumbled across it while researching something else, but morbid curiosity kept me reading… sadly
David dear, I am a PhD Geologist, Catholic, Conservative, and Texan! Throw in that I am a highly educated woman and Heaven Help Me, I suffer all sorts of contradictions according to your interpretations.
One simple FACT remains true regardless of my affiliation or beliefs (or yours for that matter). Our planet has, is, and will continue to go through many cycles of cooling and heating as it reacts to the constant movement of the surface and subsurface. The earth’s physical processes, which you could not possibly understand, have been occurring for over 4 billion years and are fairly stable… oh wait- you may not be aware of those either if you believe in all those ‘creationist’ theories…. Nevertheless, ‘tis true.
A mere human civilization has had (short of a nuclear warhead) negligible influence on the powerful forces that dictate what this planet does internally or atmospherically. Educate yourself David, you seem to be falling short in this debate.
It is quite enjoyable to watch you try to pick your way through this battle you have started with your uneducated liberal self.
Cheers to those trying to educate poor David, but thus it seems a hopeless cause.
Well, David may be a troll, but he was right about one thing. Nobody wanted to address my criticism of John’s climate-change-skepticism above. All too busy feeding the troll.
I’ll give it another shot, with Ms Rock Digger.
A common claim of the climate change skeptic is that our planet goes through “many cycles of cooling and heating” and that man has only limited impact on these cycles.
Well, as Rock Digger claims to be highly educated, and a PhD to boot, she is no doubt aware that these natural climate change cycles require a forcing change (such as the Milkanovich Cycles that have previosly controlled the onset and retreat of ice ages.) If that forcing change is not a result of human activity then what is it?
Until recently we have been in a cooling phase, but our sudden and dramatic rise in global temperature is happening at a rate almost ten times faster than any previous naturally forced warming period, and it is happening out of turn, when our planet should be slowly cooling.
What natural physical process sees the simultaneous increase of CO2 in the atmosphere by 35% and a sudden rise in global temperatures? Can you give me one? Or do you assert that these are unrelated? If so, can you provide an alternative natural forcing method for the rise in temperature? I’d be surprised if you can, because nobody else has been able to yet.
On the other hand, climate scientists have provided a mainstream, internally consistent theory that accounts for the effects we are now observing. It provides explanations and makes predictions. Predictions which have been proven over and over again to be correct since they were first made over 100 years ago.
Hello Rock Digger,
* “… I am a PhD Geologist, Catholic, Conservative, and Texan! Throw in that I am a highly educated woman and Heaven Help Me, I suffer all sorts of contradictions according to your interpretations. ”
I’m impressed! Well, I’m not …
* “One simple FACT remains true regardless of my affiliation or beliefs (or yours for that matter). Our planet has, is, and will continue to go through many cycles of cooling and heating as it reacts to the constant movement of the surface and subsurface. The earth’s physical processes, which you could not possibly understand, have been occurring for over 4 billion years and are fairly stable … ”
Oh, God, you really are a Texan. I don’t mean that as a compliment, by the way …
* “A mere human civilization has had (short of a nuclear warhead) negligible influence on the powerful forces that dictate what this planet does internally or atmospherically. ”
That’s about as stupid as I would expect from a Texan. Perhaps you haven’t noticed Houston’s smoggy atmosphere. Or Perhaps you haven’t realized that a virus which is so small as to approach nonexistence is powerful enough to kill a human.
Are you really educated or are you just another resident of Teabagistan?
* “It is quite enjoyable to watch you try to pick your way through this battle you have started with your uneducated liberal self. ”
Pity the poor college that gave you a degree … except, of course, you have no education and no degree. You are just another ignorant Texan teabagger. Has your governor finally decided to secede from the United States? Please tell him to do so. I’d prefer to give Texas back to Mexico, though, since the state was stolen from Mexico by American illegal immigrants.
Hello Dylan,
* “Well, David may be a troll, but he was right about one thing. Nobody wanted to address my criticism of John’s climate-change-skepticism above. All too busy feeding the troll. ”
If you would stop whining long enough to listen to yourself you would realize why no one addressed your arguments.
* “What natural physical process sees the simultaneous increase of CO2 in the atmosphere by 35% and a sudden rise in global temperatures? Can you give me one? Or do you assert that these are unrelated? If so, can you provide an alternative natural forcing method for the rise in temperature? ”
You are asking a bunvh of good questions by they are addressed to an uneducated scientifically illiterate audence. You might as well not waste your time waiting for an answer.
* “On the other hand, climate scientists have provided a mainstream, internally consistent theory that accounts for the effects we are now observing. It provides explanations and makes predictions. Predictions which have been proven over and over again to be correct since they were first made over 100 years ago. ”
You say this as if you expect this audience of teabaggers would heed the scientific evidence. You should take it for granted that these people would no more heed actual scientific evidence than an audience of creationists would heed actual biological evidence of evolution.
You are wasting your time. Stop whining because my comments are actually answered. You have to address your audience in language that they will hear.
The residents of Teabagistan aren’t educated enough to appreciate science.
Dylan,
Touché
I regard anyone in a higher opinion that is willing to open his or her mind and listen and be educated from experts rather than media hype that twist words to portray their own agenda. So that being said, I applaud you for wanting to know more.
I am more or less ambivalent in general because until I see scientific evidence that proves the opinion of global warming, it will never be a theory. I don’t fault anyone for lack of knowledge, only for lack of willingness to learn. My purpose is not to debate science with people who do not have the knowledge to understand what they are reading. I am merely pointing out that your previously domineering troll is uneducated himself and WRONG.
As was previously mentioned, to predicate an argument with an arbitrary time slice of a few (6) years or even 100 of scientific data on this scale of a topic, is unqualified. 100 years in the life spectrum of earth are but a speck of sand in the hourglass.
Ice cores have been studied for over 450,000 years. Those cores show climate cycles for which we have no other historical documentation, i.e. weather data. We are following in a VERY typical pattern according to numerous studies of those cores samples. Pollen data and other flora/faunal studies, which are excellent climate indicators for anyone well versed in historical climatology, also substantiate these theories.
Dually noted, there is a conundrum of climate conditions upon us if you look in the narrow window of decades and centuries, but to arbitrarily assign that to a gas and a ‘carbon footprint’ is just plain bad science.
As for Milankovitch cycles (spelled correctly), this is a naturally occurring phenomenon that has more to do with the earth’s eccentricity as it follows orbit and accounts for the periodicities. Regarding the question ‘what causes the forcing change of Milankovitch cycles?’ That can be answered in a similar way to any College Physics course going through a more detailed explanation of gravity. There are detailed mathematical derivations as to why they occur too complex to post here. Suffice it to say, read up on Kepler and you will find what you need. During the Holocene, and even further back, we are actually quite close to the mean anomaly.
For the record, there were far worse ‘climate conditions’ than we are experiencing now and much higher temperatures and CO2 concentrations over the last 100+ M-cycles. We are still here as a species along with many millions of others that survived…
Don’t get me wrong I am all for doing my part environmentally; using fossil fuels and water with respect- as these are precious commodities. But I am quite frankly tired of uneducated people (mainly the media) teaching the larger portion of the population about something of which they know nothing.
Let us get back to the Darvaza anomaly, of which I am much more curious about…
David you have yet to provide anyone with intelligent information, so typical.
Your commentary very much becomes a guy who is sitting in his boxer shorts behind a laptop in his mom’s basement without a real job.
Oh wait… you must be the guy who keeps failing my Geology exams for my 9 am class…
Get an education my friend.
Kanter and Metis Warrior,
I, like you, stumbled upon this site not looking for anything related to a vacation- but rather the Darvaza well.
Let us pick up before the troll’s rant and cast that aside.
I agree a power plant near the well is an option but what of the cost of infastructure to get locals and others to it? In adition to the cost of puting out the fire initially, there are firms out there who specialize in this arena.
Any thoughts?
Ms Digger,
Thanks for replying. I agree that Darvarza is a fascination, but I must respond nonetheless to your post.
CRU and NASA data extends back 150 years and shows consistently higher than average temperature ranges over the past 30 years, a trend starting in about 1915.
Borehole measurements give us a longer range of measure, providing data on the last 500 years or so, and they also show the last century as being consistently warmer than the previous 4.
Proxy data anlysis (tree rings, pollen data, ocean sediment, coral growth etc) aggregated together gives us a picture of the last 1-2 thousand years, which shows that it is warmer now than any time during that period (including the Medieval Warm Period.)
The *nearest* geologically contemporary warm period was thought to be the Holocene Climatic Optimum, about 6000 years ago, but current research indicates that this period was only as warm as today in the northern hemisphere, and only in summer. So these models now indicate that it is warmer now than any time in the past 10,000 years (are we approaching an appropriate geological scale for you now?)
Since the last ice age ended around 10,000 years ago, and lasted for about 100,000 years, we can now be reasonably confident that we are in the warmest period during the past 100,000 years.
We may still be here as a species, but I would suggest we were a very different kind of animal 100,000 years ago, the last time it was perhaps this warm.
I find it interesting that you argue we are close to the mean anomaly for the Holocene period. If you can point me to some recent research that agrees with this view, I would like to see it. The closest peak in the Holocene to present conditions is about 7,700 years ago, and still well below 2005 levels.
All this during a period that the globe should really be slowly cooling.
The assignment of the warming cycle to CO2 is not arbitrary. CO2 represents the best fit based on oberservation, theory, prediction and review in a field stretching back over 100 years. That doesn’t sound like the definition of Bad Science to me. It suggests to me that your standard for determining whether something is opinion or theory may need to be addressed. Perhaps by reviewing some more of the science.
Back to Darvaza, to me it seems a wholly natural penomenon. Just because it is spectacular doesn’t mean it needs to be tapped.
As a species, we have already worked out methods for efficiently extracting heat and energy from the ground below our feet without the need to set it on fire. I guarantee that a few hundred well placed heat pumps in the USA would generate far more usable and proximate energy than the Darvaza hole.
Let it burn.
Hello rock digger,
* “I am more or less ambivalent in general because until I see scientific evidence that proves the opinion of global warming, it will never be a theory. ”
Evidently you did get your degree from the University of Teabagistan, otherwise known as Glenn Beck’s Univerisity of I Don’t Remember.
* “As was previously mentioned, to predicate an argument with an arbitrary time slice of a few (6) years or even 100 of scientific data on this scale of a topic, is unqualified. 100 years in the life spectrum of earth are but a speck of sand in the hourglass.”
Wow … you’ve made a discovery. The Earth is really old. You must have learned this in elementary school because that’s when they start teaching it. I hope you don’t expect a Nobel Prize for the discovery, though, since science has known about it for a very long time.
* “Ice cores have been studied for over 450,000 years. Those cores show climate cycles for which we have no other historical documentation, i.e. weather data. We are following in a VERY typical pattern according to numerous studies of those cores samples. Pollen data and other flora/faunal studies, which are excellent climate indicators for anyone well versed in historical climatology, also substantiate these theories. ”
Seems that the Ph.D. from Teabagistan allows you to reach conclusions about samples which you haven’t studied and in direct contradiction to the conclusions of the scientists who actually have studied the material.
* “Dually noted, there is a conundrum of climate conditions upon us if you look in the narrow window of decades and centuries, but to arbitrarily assign that to a gas and a ‘carbon footprint’ is just plain bad science. ”
To the membersof Teabagistan, perhaps, but not so much to the scientists who have actually devoted their career to the subject.
* “For the record, there were far worse ‘climate conditions’ than we are experiencing now and much higher temperatures and CO2 concentrations over the last 100+ M-cycles. We are still here as a species along with many millions of others that survived… ”
Humans did not exist in those previous conditions, of course, and civilization did not exist either. But if you want to argue about survival in harsh conditions, there are millions of humans surviving in sewer type conditions so you won’t object if someone dumps their sewage in your living room, right?
* “Don’t get me wrong I am all for doing my part environmentally; using fossil fuels and water with respect- as these are precious commodities. But I am quite frankly tired of uneducated people (mainly the media) teaching the larger portion of the population about something of which they know nothing ”
You respect oil … ! God, the members of teabagistan are stupid.
Hello rock digger,
* “Oh wait… you must be the guy who keeps failing my Geology exams for my 9 am class… ”
Pity the poor students who have to listen to your crap in order to get a grade. Which polluting industry do you represent?
Hello Dylan,
* “That doesn’t sound like the definition of Bad Science to me. It suggests to me that your standard for determining whether something is opinion or theory may need to be addressed. Perhaps by reviewing some more of the science. ”
You are wasting your time engaged in an argument with someone who has already rejected science. It is as pointless as trying to lead a creationists to science.
Rock Digger represents a polluting interest and therefore isn’t going to abandon a defense of pollution on behalf as anything as irrelevant as the health of the planet or the future of humankind.
The point in engaging a climate contrarian isn’t necessarily to convince the contrarian to change their mind. (She often has to slink away somewhere for a while before boldy stepping forward to announce a miraculous change of perspective.)
The point in engaging a contrarian is to provide the silent majority of people participating in this experience with the assurance that there are serious answers, and rational discussions to be had.
When Obama and McCain debated, they weren’t trying to convince each other of anything (what a wasted effort that would be!) They were busy convincing the audience.
If you misunderstand this as an effort to convert a lost soul, you misunderstand the purpose and action of debate in general.